That broke in 1.7.7A.

Mete is trying to chase the author down and get it fixed. Apparently, it leaves a window open when it's unloaded after use, and crashes the 2nd time you try to open it.

The Selection Editor reminds me of the DirectX MeshView program stuck inside that window. I don't know whether the two are related or not. But I have had pretty good success here using the MeshTool to preview normals and such. However, you have to spend some time and effort to get ahold of the DirectX SDK to get it... at least that's where I got it from.

Now, I have left MilkShape 1.7.7 installed here, both have shortcuts on the desktop, so I can easily roll back to 1.7.7 for testing. I haven't seen any appreciable differences in 1.7.7A, but then I'm not starved for RAM here, either, which was the issue that he was trying to hit with the 1.7.7A changes.

<* Wes *>

Aaaaah, Auto--smooth... I remember playing with that one, I got so used to having to turn it off. I've never looked at the selection editor either, I'll definitely check that out.

Thanks!

I spent most of yesterday trying to find a way to get all data in to Blender since I only have about 25 days left on MilkShapes trial license. However I had no luck. Is there any information available about the data format in the GDMC-file from SimPE?

Anyway,



I tried to use the plugin but there seems to be some unresolved references in it. I get this in MilkShapes logfile:

Trying PlugIn: C:\PROGRAM\MILKSHAPE 3D 1.7.7A\msS2UBT1.dll
LoadLibrary failed on: C:\PROGRAM\MILKSHAPE 3D 1.7.7A\msS2UBT1.dll. Please check dependencies ...

So I went back and experimented a bit more. I looked at "the number of assignements" idea and it seems that the problem is the weight number. One or two digits is ok but trying 100% crashes the program. Setting 99% and klicking the "up" arrow - poof. Seems like there is only room for two digits.

Hope this helps.

Or You could export an .obj file and use Blender to see, flip and recaculate the normals. Blender is free Don't know how to get it back into MilkShape without losing the bone assignements though.

Hmm, the autosmooth thing doesn't seem to work... it still smooths the entire model, or at least it looks like it in MS (seams and all that). It seems like any time you do anything with smoothing, it affects the entire group you're working on, and regrouping anything kills the bone information. Am I missing something?

Just popped over to the SimPE website and saw this from Feb 1st:



Seems like something we would need pretty badly Thought I'd post it here since many are probably like me and don't check there for updates too often. Actually though, this seems to regard the Import feature for meshes, not the Replace option we use with this tool set. Not sure if it applies or not.

The model I saw looked like it had already been smoothed.

I have two suggestions:

1. Follow Dr. Pixel's suggestion on selectively rewelding w/autosmooth. I think you will have some help if you weld the vertices at what would be the lower edge of the bra.

2. Changing the model a little: Part of the issue here is shadowing, which is, in part, caused by the projection of the breast straight out above the upper belly. You might consider making a slight bevel below each breast, from about the 4:00 to about the 8:00 position. Right now, there is almost a 90 degree transition in this area. Putting a narrow strip bevelled at about 45 degrees should cause a smoother transition and reduce the shadows. Too wide a strip may detract from the effect you are looking for, but some bevelling should help.

<* Wes *>

I had smoothed the .obj part separately before importing it into the main model, but other than that the smoothing was all original from the imported GMDC. When I select just the new faces and reweld them with AutoSmooth turned on, it re-smooths the whole model and the seams appear.

I thought about adjusting the positions of the vertices like you suggested, getting the smoothing to recalculate, then moving them back to position... I'll try it and see what happens.

I was thinking along the lines of your adding new faces, in the form of two narrow strips (one for each breast) that tapers at each end, where the breast joins the chest. Since your gal had her breast enhancement and lift work done, there is a sharp transition along that area that was once a lesser angle.

That is one thing I think will reduce the shadows, as the transition will no longer go from horizontal to vertical immediately (you will have a couple of normals at each edge of the strip that will allow a smooth transition).

<* Wes *>

I think I just made an important discovery as to why I'm having so much trouble with this area... I think the vertices along the bottom of the breast where it joins the chest have *2* normals assigned to them!

Take a look at this ms3d file, which is just a trimmed-down version of the torso, with no alterations made except adding the nipples, which works fine. If you select some faces and pull up the Selection Editor, you'll see 2 lines projecting from those vertices when you display normals. When you re-weld this area of course, it loses one of them... resulting in the shadowing problems, apparently.

Actually at this point, I haven't moved a single existing vertex, so no enhancements to the shape have been done... this is still the default Maxis shape. My goal is to make a higher-res default model to replace the base nudes, then use the Poser technique Xenos and Zenman worked out to create new sizes based on the new default. The extra vertices are to eliminate the flat undersides of the breasts on the larger versions of my current meshes.

An unwelded vertice is two vertices at the exact same spot. They normally each have seperate normals, as you observed. I think you would find that smoothing will either remove one or make both the same.

And yes, welding make both vertices into one, combining both of the normals into the one vertex/one normal pairing. For the welding to remain through export, the UV coordinates must be the same for the two welded vertices, or the exporter will split them apart (but the previous extra normal value is gone forever).

Issues like that are why Maxis left the "seams" of duplicated vertices in the models in the first place, to allow for different UV values for coincident points. I had to add a bunch of code to straighten this out because MilkShape does not look at the differing values for the UVs when it welds the vertices together (it stores the UV values in the face data). In that case, if I don't separate them during export you get 'striped' textures, as one edge of the "seam", like the back half, has the same UV coordinate as the front, but the remaining UVs for that face are from the back half, meaning there are now faces that don't get painted (making them the skin color for that model).

Looks like you're making progress.... and teaching me some in the process.

<* Wes *>

It seems Maxis used each section of the mesh (the AFTopNaked I'm using for example) in several groups... the back torso, the front lower torso, the breasts, and the arms. That would explain the seams and dual vertices along them. I wonder if I can use the Group tool in Milkshape to take an exported .obj file, split it up into the groups it seems they used, and smooth them separately... then merge them back into one group and import it using Dr Pixel's technique to get it to blend with the existing model. It seems all the smoothing stuff works by group, so separating the different parts would smooth them separately, and may get things to work the way I want.

Guess I should try it and see :D

Wait a minute! I just had a thought... if I add my ring of extra vertices one ring out from where the chest and breast join, I could eliminate the shadow problems with the 2 vertex area, and still give myself a little extra stretch-ability I'm looking for.

OK, off to try it... I'll be back :D

I was asked if I could create a keyboard shortcut for the Bone Tool.
I can't easily create one for you without writing a specialized installer. But I know how to set Shortcuts up, and can guide you through the process of how-to-do-it-yourself.

First, you need to know where MilkShape is installed, how to operate the Windows Explorer, including how to move files and create a directory, and how to operate Notepad. I suspect most people that are trying to mod-the-Sims-2 have long ago acquired these skills, but if you haven't you need to learn to be able to do these things before trying to follow this procedure.

First, the 1.7.7 & 1.7.7A releases (and probably older versions, too) have a bug in them which restricts the number of lines of the file "shortcuts.ini" that the game will read in at startup. It seems to only make it through the "msPOVRay.." entry, stopping short of the "msS2.." names I gave my plugins (they are written out in alphabetic order).

So, long ago I moved all the DLLs for items I never use to a seperate directory within the MilkShape install directory. I quite imaginatively called this "MovedDLLs". For you to get the shortcuts working, you, too, will have to move a bunch of the DLLs from the base install directory into a subdirectory. Since MilkShape dynamically scans the DLLs at startup, the effect on shortening your menus will be immediate.

But these old names linger on in the "shortcuts.ini" file. You need to open it, with Notepad or a similar plain text editor, and delete the line entry for each DLL you moved. They are at the tail end of the file, and are listed as the DLL name, minus the ".dll" extension.

When you are doing this, you'll notice that all of the entries are followed by some other data like below:

msS2UBT1 =1,

In the "=1," part the "1" means the file is to be used (a zero disables it), and if there is a shortcut, it follows immediately after the comma.

So, after moving the unwanted DLLs (you pick which ones by looking at the name and deciding that you don't ever use them) and then removing these names from the shortcuts.ini file, you should have the file in shape to change the above line into this:

msS2UBT1 =1,Ctrl+B

Note that there are no spaces between the "=" sign and the end of the line! In the above entry, I made B with the control key held down the shortcut for the Bone Tool, whose program filename is "msS2UBT1.dll" (a list of these names is in the readme I packaged with the download zip file). Had I used "Shift+Ctrl+B" you would have had to hold down both the shift and controls keys while pressing the "B" key to activate the shortcut.

How did I pick "Ctrl+B"? I looked through all of the existing shortcuts, matching them to the letter, and the "B" key was unused. You can do the same, or just copy my shortcut.

Once you have pared the list length down, you can use the "Shortcut & Plugin Manager..." from the tool menu to set this entry up if you like a GUI better than manually editing the "shortcuts.ini" entry. But without moving a bunch (a dozen or more) of DLLs, and then removing their entries from the shortcuts.ini file, the entries will not show up in the Shortcut & Plugin Manager or in MilkShape.

When you have successfully followed these steps you will be able to select some vertices and then press control+B to display the Bone Editor. You may assign more shortcuts for other plugins, you need only to avoid conflicting with any shortcuts already assigned (you can remove a shortcut that you want from another item, including built-in functions, if that suits you, but don't use any twice).

<* Wes *>

Seperate smoothing groups would do this. The .obj file and MilkShape both understand them, and that's what they were designed for, although smoothing group are most useful on objects where you have sharp corners. Ordinary smoothing without assigning smoothing groups would make the normals at the corner of a cube, for instance, point out at a 45 degree angle, making the corner look rounded. If you leave the cube unwelded and assign smoothing groups in a fashion that no adjacent faces belong to the same smoothing group, a Smooth All will not disturb the normals at the edges.

There is no place for smoothing groups in the GMDC format. That's why they are not present when you imported the file, and the exporter simply ignore them, because there is nowhere to place them. But they can be exported and imported in .obj format as well as in the .ms3d native file save format. I suspect that the different sections of the base mesh were originally in different smoothing groups when they were created at Maxis.

<* Wes *>

Wohooo! Success!

Thanks for all the brainstorming help and advice, Wes and Doc P... I think this will work out just fine for what I want to do. Plus now we know they sometimes keep 2 vertices in one spot on purpose in the Maxis meshes... :P

I reworked the nipples a bit too to get the shadowing to work correctly, I think it's just about perfect now... it even looks pretty good with the default Barbie skintone Now I can import it into Poser and start playing with Magnets... been waiting a long time to be able to do this!

Congrats & glad to help. Was interesting & we learned a lot.

I have a suggestion: In message #170 of this thread ( http://www.modthesims2.com/showthre...963#post1030963 ) I posted a special tool import/export pair I called the ObjX Split Importer and exporter. It's a special exporter that exports everything except the .obj data into one file.

Essentially, as long as you only move vertices, with no reordering, and the program maintains the vertice and face order as it was when read in, you can split your project into two halves, a wavefront .obj piece and the .objx extra data.

After fiddling with it in Poser, you would export the .obj, and then import it into MilkShape (use file/new first), the run the .objx importer, which will add all the comments, bones, bone assignments, etc back into the file, ready to save and export (or whatever). If the .obj got reordered, the importer saved enough data to detect it, and will complain.

I wrote it for external UV Mapping, but I didn't think to try it on Poser. It doesn't matter if the vertice locations change, so long as they stay in order. If Poser maintains the proper order, it may make the job easier for you.

<* Wes *>

Thanks Wes, I was kinda thinking that might help for that too, if some of the vertex data got messed up in Poser. I'll definitely give it a shot. Playing around with Poser now, it's been a while so I have to relearn a bit.

This might be a workable option - if Blender keeps the vertices in the same order that they came in, and you don'tadd or remove anything. Then you could use Wes's new plugin that allows the bone and assignment data to be exported/imported separately to restore the lost assignment data.

I only have Poser 5 here, but I tried the .objx spit tools since my last post, and they work fine with Poser 5, although it looks like it could use a smooth from MilkShape to reduce the seams on the arms.

You have to be careful about scaling and naming, though. Taking the default 100% of normal character size on import will scale the model to a fraction (looked about 1/4 size) of the Sims 2 size. So deselect that.

On export from Poser, you need to "include existing groups" and "use exact names" and deselect the "weld" options presented to you. Even the scaled down version imported, but was the wrong size for the skeleton, and "Scale All" seemed to be scaling the skeleton along with the body. But I got both the normal and the morph mesh into and out of Poser and back into the game. There was a bogus group ahead of the "body" group, but I deleted it, it seemed to be empty. And getting it into BodyShop looking good means that all the data was kept in order. It's an option, and you won't have to redo the bone assignments and weighting each time you reimport your next set of changes.

Be sure and stop back & let us see what cool stuff you do!

<* Wes *>

Sigh... I have installed and deinstalled Blender here quite a few times. While there are parts of the user interface I dislike (too unix-y) I can tolerate that. But it is less stable than I'd like, and the developer's sense of an intuitive user interface leaves a lot to be desired.

So I'm going to pass on testing blender here with the .objx split tools and leave that to someone else. All the people that want to use blender because they don't want to pay for MilkShape will not be able to use it, anyway, except for a 30 day trial, onetime. Those that are comfortable with blender and do have MilkShape, if it works, have a good option to help get their mesh into the game.

<* Wes *>

Just to make sure everybody is aware, the Groups that are listed on the Groups tab in MilkShape are not the same thing as "Smoothing Groups" -

The listed Groups at the top are what object makers refer to as "mesh subsets" and these are recognized by the game - not for smoothing, but for being "colored" in the game by a particular material definition file -

In Milkshape, the "smoothing groups" are down in the middle, the section with those numbered buttons. These do not need to correspond to your mesh groups or subsets. They are used only in MilkShape as far as I know.

The reason using the "smooth all" tool smoothes everything is because the default, until you tell MilkShape otherwise, is that everything assigned to a particular texture image is automatically assigned to group 1.

Try it to see how it works - have your whole mesh (except morph groups) showing, then click on the 1 button. The whole mesh is selected, just as if you did a "Select All" - now click on 2 - the mesh is de-selected, since nothing is assigned to group 2 yet.

Now select some faces, then click the [Assign] button in the Smoothing Groups section. Then click 2

Then click the [Select] button in that section to go back to Select mode and try the 1 and two buttons again.

You now have different parts of the same mesh group assigned to two different smoothing groups -

This won't affect your mesh as far as the game is concerned, it will still export correctly with the mesh groups as they should be.

However you can now select one of these numbered groups, and "smooth all" will only operate on that smoothing group, not on your whole mesh.

Kind of confusing to explain, but if you play around with this for a few minutes you will get the idea.

Well, so far I'm having zero success with Poser importing/exporting. I got my new mesh imported into Poser, made some magnet sets and got a morph created that looks really great for a first run. So, I export the .obj, pull it into Mesh Tool, load my working hi-res mesh GMDC, and save it back out. Then when I pull it up in BodyShop it explodes.

I've also played around with the ObjX import/export tool, but I'm not having much luck with that either... half the time the magnets in Poser explode the mesh, and I have no idea why and it's not consistent (I got it to work once). The time I did get it to work, I exported just the "Top" group, deleting the morph groups (since Poser can't support them, can it?). When I got it all imported and reapplied the ObjX settings, there were bad seams, and the morphs didn't work (which makes sense since I removed them).

Ugh, I'm frustrated.

OK, here's what I want to do... maybe someone else has an idea for how to pull it off.
I've got my new hi-res mesh, which works great. The whole point of making that, was to be able to import it into Poser, apply some magnet presets, and re-export. Then I planned to run it through the Mesh Tool, using my modified mesh as the reference for the data, and import that into Simpe, and create the mesh package. Except nothing works. And it's really starting to irritate me...

Anybody got any ideas? I know the Poser technique works with the Maxis models, Zenman did a whole series of them and I'm following his steps. The only difference between this and what I did for my last project was I'm using my modified mesh for a base instead of the Maxis default... which is probably what's breaking the whole thing.

Were you able to simply export your gdmc, run it through meshtool, and then use meshtool on that obj file and replace the gdmc with it?

That would be the first thing I'd test - because meshtool (like most of these tools) expects an original maxis untouched gdmc as its starting point. Of course, the original maxis gdmc will not work combined with your new mesh, so you'll need to make a new 'original' gdmc of your mesh and fingers crossed meshtool will be able to work with it.