Sims 2 Creator Policies

The Sims 2 creation community is, I believe, rather unique in game modding realms. There is a strange "professionalism" in the way we do things, even though creating is a hobby done for enjoyment. Popular sites are well-designed, easy to navigate, and creators are held to an incredibly high standard of quality. Much of this has been influenced by the way MTS2 is run - I say this not because I'm staff here, but simply because it's the truth. It was one of the first things I noticed when I was getting into the Sims 2 modding community... that MTS2 seemed to, well, have their shit together, and treated creating as something that should not only be done, but done well. This was what got me started posting my work at MTS2 in the first place. This sense of professionalism in a hobby has only increased over the years, creating a high standard for content as well as the way it's presented.

Along with posting content (not just at MTS2, but around the community), each creator or site generally posts a policy or terms of use, dictating exactly what can or cannot be done with their work, and how. This also seems to be a bit of an oddity in the Sims 2 community: in many others, it is common practice to simply release your creations for whatever usage and expect a link and credit in return. Nobody outright says this - it's just the way it's done, so simple a courtesy that it goes without saying.

But in the Sims 2 community it's very different... everyone has their own individual policies which vary wildly from creator to creator - what one can do with someone's meshes, textures, alphas, whether you can post their work with sims or lots, etc., all is extremely individual and everyone's policies are slightly different. Some creators won't let you do anything at all with their work without asking specific permission.

What constitutes a "fair" terms of use is very much a matter of opinion. Personally, I believe my terms of use are fair: use my stuff pretty much however you like as long as it isn't for profit - just give me a link and credit if you're distributing any part of it - however, if you want to edit one of my meshes, talk to me first... Unless you're a total beginner who clearly can't do it right and is taking on a bigger project than they are ready for, I'm extremely unlikely to say anything but "Heck yes, go for it!" I also put in my terms of use that I would like to know when you use my stuff, simply because it makes me go, "Eee!" all excited to see a nice recolour of my meshes, and many times I can offer tips or advice on doing something a bit better, and these have always been appreciated by creators editing my work.

Mesh redistribution is one area where creators' policies are often very different: I personally don't mind people putting up my meshes with their recolours elsewhere as it's just easier that way - but I do hope that people doing so actually read my terms of use and include my readme (so people know where to find more recolours) and send me a PM so I can put them on my list of people who have my meshes posted elsewhere... that way if I ever update those meshes, I can send a message to them saying, "Hey, you should update the one posted on your site." To prevent the need for this (and for other reasons, such as maintaining control of their work), many mesh creators don't allow their meshes to be reposted, and ask that you instead link back to them for the mesh.

My policies used to forbid mesh redistribution - which was violated, to my great dismay, and had me seriously considering whether I wanted to continue sharing my work in a community where prominent and popular free creators would violate others' terms of use. After some time, the offending party apologized, and after some consideration on my part, I decided to change my policies to allow for redistribution in a way that I consider fair.

Rarely (but not as rare as you'd think), creators even want credit if you just use their work in pictures, without actually sharing any part of their work for download. I personally think terms of use that require credit for just using things in pictures is going too far and requiring too much of downloaders: if we had to do that for everything used in every pic, it would take forever to make a credits list, and nobody would post pics. I also think that terms requiring permission for simple, routine things like recolouring someone's mesh or using their textures is going too far as well: you likely have a standard answer you'd use anyway, so why not just tell people whether they can or can't and not make them wait for you to check your messages and reply for simple things like that?

I've seen some rather strange policies now and then - like asking that people not use their work in adult stories, pics, or videos... And the much-joked-about (but actually false) "don't use on fat sims" terms which were a misinterpretation of a creator actually saying their meshes didn't include fat morphs.

It is extremely rare for a creator to say "do whatever you want with my stuff, I don't care" but there are some. More often, Sims 2 creators wish to maintain some level of control over their work. Even those with extremely liberal terms have some things that they won't allow, or want you to ask permission first to do.


Violations of Terms of Use

Though it has gone on a bit more "under the radar" for a long time, a new trend seems to have emerged on several sites (which I will not name but you may already know). This trend involves using the works of both free and pay creators in basically whatever way you like: reposting, editing, modifying, recolouring, converting, etc., with or without credit and links given to the original creator. Whether or not this is right to do for pay creations has been debated to death and is not the point of this post, so I will not speak of it further.

However, the new trend of terms of use violations involves much more use of the work of free creators in this way and it is this usage which I am addressing here.

Most commonly, these terms of use violations involve posting meshes with recolours, when the meshes are made by creators who do not wish their meshes reposted in this way and prefer that those who recolour their meshes link back to them for the mesh. While it is easier on people downloading for recolour creators to do it this way, the amount of effort it requires to click a link and download a mesh is very little - two or three extra clicks, at most an extra 15 seconds or so.

That is most common, but there are other violations of free creators' terms of use occurring more and more often now: recolours of free meshes posted with the mesh in violation of the creator's terms, without even a mention of the creator of the mesh, so it looks an awful lot like the recolour-maker made the mesh themselves. Or people use free creators' textures without permission when required, and often without credit or links at all, basically claiming the work as their own. Others age or gender convert meshes (both pay and free) without permission, and sometimes without proper links and credit.

Indeed, there are whole forums and sites that are themed on violating creators' terms of use - they are a free-for-all where anything can and is posted regardless of whether or not it's okay with the original creator.

It's easy to do this sort of thing on the internet, where you have a degree of anonymity and you don't have to look someone in the eye when you're slapping them in the face... Easy to do it to someone you've never met and never will... But artistic karma still applies online, and such actions will come back to bite you in the ass eventually.


Respecting Terms of Use of Free Creators

So why is this a big deal? Why should it matter if the creations were posted freely? If the community accepts it for pay creators' work, why not do the same for free creators, and just have a big free-for-all?

This community, such as it is, is built on the work of free creators. Even if you don't agree with their terms of use, if you like their work enough to want to modify and use it, why not respect them as creators of quality free content and not violate their terms of use?

There is a disturbing sense of entitlement that has permeated the community of late - this feeling of "because it's out there, I should have it, and I should be able to do whatever I want with it." I find this entitlement rather unsettling, and a slap in the face to those who have spent their own time and effort to create something good that is shared with the community for their enjoyment. While one may not agree with a restrictive terms of use, violating it when it comes to free creators strikes me as extremely immature and a very selfish, narrow-minded attitude to take.

Creators, by and large, can be a very dramatic bunch, but it is often at least partially justified. I don't believe the average user truly understands just how much time and effort is put into creating something really good. While one can slap together something that technically works in-game in a short time, creating something that works well, looks good, and really makes you go "Ooooh, that's niiiiice!" takes a heck of a lot of work, patience, and persistence. While it is a labor of love, and done as a hobby, and nobody has forced anyone to sit down and create and share these things... just because someone has shared it and not hoarded it doesn't mean that we then have the right to just use it however we like. If you like someone's work enough to have it your game, and you like it enough that you want to modify or recolour it in some way, have enough respect for the creator and their art to do so in a way that doesn't violate their terms of use.

Some would prefer a free-for-all, a community in which there are no terms of use, and anyone can just do as they like with whatever creations they want.

But take a look at the terms of use of your favourite creators.

Really.

Go do so, right now.

Think of your top 10 favourite creators, those whose stuff fills up your Downloads folder to the brim.

Then go see what their terms say.

I'll be willing to bet that 9 our of 10 (if not 10 out of 10) of those do not have terms that say "use my stuff however you want." Their terms may vary from very open and allowing many usages to very closed, requiring permission or outright forbidding many things - but they still have terms that they want followed.

Now, imagine that every one of those creators had their terms violated time and again by the people who would prefer a free-for-all... To the point where they simply give up creating and, as so many have done already, take their toys and go home. Would you really prefer that every creator that doesn't have a "use however you want" terms of use stop creating? Would you prefer that the creators left are those extremely occasional few that don't mind their creations being used however? Would that really be better?

Some may think creators are being "drama queens" or "whiny bitches" for putting some level of restriction on their work, or for getting upset when their terms of use are violated, but pretty much all creators have some terms of use or policy in place, even if it is fairly loose.

Yes, we are creating for a game, but it is still an act of creation, of taking an idea and forming it into something that did not exist before. The truly good creators are artists. If you wrote a short story, or drew a piece of art... and then someone wanted to translate your story into another language and repost it, or use your art on their website... and then they just went ahead and did so without your permission, and perhaps even without even mentioning your name at all when the original clearly has your details on it... the vast majority of people would be understandably pissed off. All that most creators ask for is a link and credit - some for permission for certain usage - and that's not terribly hard to comply with.

Creators are people too, and they deserve our respect for spending the time and effort to create the things that we all love. If all the really great creators leave because they aren't respected (and again, how many truly great creators have completely open "do whatever you want, I don't care" policies?) then we will be in a sad situation, where the only ones left are the tiny percentage that don't care. While I don't agree with the "I'm taking my toys and going home" attitude (which punishes the vast majority who simply download and enjoy a creator's work in their game), I do understand how one would be upset over something they have put so much time and effort into being misused. I've gotten upset over my own work being misused, even decided to stop creating for a little while - but I love creating and sharing too much to let the actions of a petty few keep me away for too long. I can only hope others are wise enough to do the same, but I know for many, if creating isn't fun anymore and they keep getting slapped in the face too many times, they're simply going to quit.

Creators are not asking for you to kiss their asses, or your firstborn, or to suck their toes: they just want a little respect... for a link and credit when their work is used in accordance with their terms of use, and for you to have the decency to ask permission if there's something else you want to do. If you can't do that, you're just being lazy. And if they did want something outrageous, or had ridiculous terms... it's not like you couldn't just use someone else's work: there's more than enough stuff out there that you could use instead.

It's not too much to ask for everybody to respect creators' policies, and to call them names or otherwise acting childish, as if you are entitled to do whatever you like with their work, just because you can't get exactly what you want, serves to undermine this entire community. A healthy community cannot thrive in an atmosphere of greed, selfishness, and disrespect - one can only prosper in an atmosphere of common courtesy, sharing of information and creations, and respect for other people and their work.


A Proposed Resolution

I believe the solutions to these problems come in several forms:

To downloaders...

Get your content from reputable creators. Use freely available content posted in accordance with the creators' terms in your game and in your pictures and movies. Even if something looks awfully pretty, if you know it's posted on a site or forum that allows terms of use violations, don't download it. There's too much free content posted correctly to fill your game up with stuff that is stolen, or at least partially stolen. While it may be nice to get whatever you want free from all sorts of places, remember that you have artistic karma too, and you can choose who to support and who to pass by. Vote with your clicky-finger, and choose content for your game that comes from the original creator, or is posted in accordance with their terms of use.

To creators...

Don't have an overly-restrictive terms of use that makes people feel like they have to violate it in the first place. While you may feel better having people need to ask you permission to do absolutely anything with your stuff, people will just do as they like anyway, and it'll upset you - maybe to the point that you won't want to create anymore...

Think about what constitutes a fair terms of use for your work from the perspective of others, not just your own. Most of the time, all creators really want is a link and credit if their stuff is modified - you don't need people to ask you permission for that. If you're making hair and you don't want others to age or gender convert it... why not do it yourself from the start? That way you can be sure it's done right, and there's no reason for anyone to do so. Or, if you don't have time to do it for everything, at least make it clear that you would be happy to do so if someone requests it for specific styles, or give permission for edits if someone asks.

Realize that people using your textures, alphas, meshes, etc., is flattering - it means they liked your work enough to tweak it and create something new with it - and write your terms accordingly. Let people take what you've made and build on it. Let people include your work with their sim or lot uploads. Consider letting them include your meshes with their recolours - you can always make a readme and ask them to include that too while they're at it.

If you write your terms so that people feel welcome to use your work from the start, and make it clear that you're happy to have them ask questions and link you to what they've made with your work, they'll have nothing to violate.

To those who would violate terms of use...

There's really no justification for doing this... a sense of "gimme gimme, I'm entitled to this and to do whatever I want with it!" is incredibly short-sighted and selfish when it comes to free creators' work, and is just going to piss off the people who have given you something that you clearly like enough to want to reuse somehow. Just because it's given freely doesn't mean it's yours to do whatever you want with it.

If you don't want to have to ask permission from people to ask to use their textures or to recolour their meshes, or if you want to be able to include meshes every time with your work, it's quite easy to check peoples' terms before you download. Lot builders do this all the time: they only fill their game with things they know can be freely shared, so they don't have to worry about that once they're done creating. You can easily do the same: just check first, and then you can be sure that whatever meshes you're recolouring or whatever textures you're using are fine to be recoloured/included/reused. Not wanting to do this is simple laziness, and is really no excuse... if someone can spend the time to make something nice enough that you want to recolour or modify it and share it freely, you can take the extra 10 or 15 seconds required to go to their terms of use page and see whether it's something you can do without having to ask.

Be willing to ask permission if someone's terms of use don't allow for something - most creators won't say 'no' to you if you ask nicely and explain what you want to do. If you want to see something converted, why not ask the original creator to do so? If you think someone's terms of use are overly-restrictive, why not send them a polite note asking them to change (and perhaps pointing them at this thread) so people can use their work more easily? It's possible people might not realize how restrictive their terms are in comparison to those of others, but you aren't going to force them to change by violating their existing terms - but you might get them to change with a polite note.

And realize that a slap in the face to free creators tends to put them off of creating - if you like their work, respect them enough to use it in accordance with their terms of use, or ask permission if you want to do something special. Anything else is pure and simple selfish laziness.


In Closing

I know The Sims 2 is on its way out, and The Sims 3 will be coming along soon, but I am disturbed by what I see as a lot of negativity in this community. I truly believe that if you want to see something changed, the best way to do it is by setting a good example for it yourself. If you want to see a community with free, open terms of use, create good content and set your terms of use accordingly.

Demonstrate how things should be done by your own deeds and actions rather than hoping to force people to do it through negativity and selfishness. The attitude of entitlement in this community seems to be growing, and I hope that people realize that angering creators is not going to help keep the creation community alive when interest is already dwindling.

While general technical achievements seem to be slowing down in the community, we have only recently seen the release of animation tools and people starting to take advantage of that. It is in everybody's interests to keep the sense of discovery alive, and if free creators are effectively forced out because people do not take 5 seconds to add a credit or a link, then we actually speed up the decline of the creative community - which I don't think anybody wants. There are still discoveries to be made, and the more brilliant minds we force out by demonstrating careless, greedy, lazy attitudes instead of kindness and respect, the less likely we are to see anything new and amazing being made in future. A community is formed by the people in it, and it is up to each individual member of this community - creators and downloaders alike - to treat others with courtesy and to create an atmosphere of learning, sharing information, and encouraging new creators to share their work as they know it will be appreciated and not misused.

If enough people truly desire a community where an open terms of use are the norm, then the only way to truly bring about that change is by doing so with gentleness and wisdom: create your own excellent content and use your fame as a soapbox for what you believe to be the "right way" of doing things, request creators with restrictive terms of use change (but do so in a way that isn't going to anger them), and above all, follow the terms of use of free creators - they deserve your respect.

I'd like to reiterate that this is not about paysites or pay content in any way but is -entirely- about doing this with free content - so if you have a response, please make sure it's not about paysites or pay content in any way. Posts regarding that will be considered off-topic and edited or deleted.

Thanks to anyone who has actually read this long ramble all the way through - I know I can be verbose, but I think this needed saying from someone whose name and creations you know and recognize, posted publicly, in a place where it can be discussed in a (hopefully) rational, calm, and dignified manner.

Whether you agree or disagree, I hope my thoughts on the matter have made you think about what it means to be part of this community, and what it means to respect someone as an artist.

right on, and thank God somebody took the time to put this! and by the way, what does 'verbose' mean?

Thank you for this. I pretty much agree with everything you said HP.

Verbose = wordy, overly so.

Here! Here!

I'm in 99% agreement overall. ... 100% about respect.

You did touch on one pet peeve of mine -- inclusion of Read-me's. Okay, if you name your readme something like ObjectFileName-Readme (a rare, rare thing). But a read-me called Readme is like a thousand others and takes a whole lot of work and subdirectories to keep it associated with the file and find-able.

Thanks for drawing attention to this important issue.

Comedy711, 'verbose' means 'wordy' or 'long-winded', like Azaya stated above. This didn't seem that way to me, as this really addressed some key issues and problems with what's wrong with the community as a whole these days.

There's also a lot of consideration for those points you addressed to each category of people, and excellent suggestions. Thanks for taking the time to share this with us, HP. :D

My goodness HP, that must've took alot of tedious work. I think that some creator policies are absurd. I couldn't understand why -free- creators do not want us to use their creations in their pictures and videos (for example.) There should be a solution on this. I was thinking of free sites, setting up some sort of alliance. Say, if ModTheSims2 wanted to become in collaboration with a free site -with an irrational policy- we could then be recognize free sites, while being partners, and maybe we could come up with an agreement because the sites would be connected? I was just thinking of this as an idea, and it's understandable if it's turned down. I mean we shouldn't police other sites -we haven't (as far as I know,) but I mean if we do collabarate with another site- And that's all I can think of now, my brain has almost died.

Wow, I get into good rambles myself.

ETA: I was just thinking about it.

HP, you're so right and your discourse is very mature. Too much maybe. This "new" free-for-all thing is so childish but, I think, is mostly the fact of children. And children are greedy and selfish (no judgment, just a fact). They work on a "I want" basis. Even if they're already filled up.
I admire your attempt to bring some morality but, to be honest, I higly doubt on good results.

I'm with you all the way HP. Nobody wants their toys stolen!

My ten minutes of reading this post is totally worthy. I agree with you 110%. If people will only take an extra few minutes of their time reading creators's policy, this terms of use violation will never happened in the first place. You have spoken from the heart of every creators.

Thank you so very much for posting this a-must-read statement .

I agree with everything you said HP, after all, you wouldn't steal a painting from an art gallery, paint a few rabbits in the corner, claim it as your own and then give it back to the gallery would you?

That is a very fine ramble HP I agree with you completely, and hope that people who read that take it to heart the proposed resolutions section. Very nicely said and thank you for spending time writing that

I'm completely agree with you, HP. People can't just edit something slightly and claim it as theirs. Using G.O.C's theory, it's like changing a word in a book and saying it's now yours and you alone created it.
Creator's policies should be respected, they've taken time out to create, tweak and perfect something and then upload it. The least other people can do is repect their wishes about their work.
Thanks for taking the time to type all that out, HP xD

Everything you said should be writen in all the websites shouldn't it? Last week I was surfing the internet when I found a 'pirate web' where you could download a lot of pay stuff... and I *honestly* didn't give it a try... I don't want to feel like I'm stealing something, though having to pay for a game modification is *at least for me* riddiculous.

I came up with 2 more solutions for downloaders (specially lot builders like me):
- download Delphy's Download Organiser, so you can easily identify the content you can or you can't include in your lots
- format your downloads folder (yes I know it's... I don't know the word for it in english, I mean, you may be unwilling to do this but... you should really, I'm telling you), and redownload everything you want (and maybe you'll be wanting less items than before bacause you've noticed that you actually don't use them) BUT clasify ALL the custom content in subfolders. That's what I did when I changed my computer: I have my downloads folder and then I have an MTS2 folder, an XMSims2, a Rosesims2... and inside these folders I've got other subfolders like ''female hair'' or ''the dark project set''.
This way you can find anything you want easily, and this comes handy when you want to recolor something for instance...

And to the creators whose policies have been violated, all I can say is... don't give up creating!, you've discovered something you like and you do PERFECTLY WELL, and these selfish and short-minded people who can't comply with your reasonable terms of use simply don't deserve your frustration, do they?

I'm becoming into HP writing all this... I hope it helps

Very well said, HP! There isn't very much in there that I don't agree completely with.

I don't know if it's a good idea, but I will still suggest that we take the opportunity - here or maybe in another thread - to discuss what can be seen as reasonable conditions to put on your creations. Because I think one reason for the possible increase in violations is that there definitely are some very restrictive TOS's out there. And they really don't do anything for the creativity of the community either.

(I remember when I first started out recoloring and had to ask permission to recolor several simple object meshes. I did so, but quite a few creators never answered back ... Which actually provoked me to go and download MilkShape, so ... huh )

It's not that I think we should force all creators to use the same conditions, but maybe by discussing it here we can raise some awareness and change some or the more restrictive attitudes.

hear hear! Well spoken! I tip my hat to you!

Thank you HP, that was a well written and complete article. I also happen to agree with you on all points.

Very nicely put, and it's nice to see that you've thought to include both sides of the equation. I have some thoughts though that I would like to add.

On readme files: of course it depends on how one organises one's Downloads folder, but for those that don't, or do it by site/creator, a simple "creator's-or-site's-name.txt" should do the trick. Thankfully, many creators actually use this format

On policy violations: while I agree that it is a childish thing to think that one is entitled to do whatever one pleases with freely posted creations, I also suspect that at least in part of the cases the attitude is more naive than defiant or possessive. Taking myself as an example, what I mean is this: let's say, I want to create a specific fantasy sim for my own game. I download skins, eyes, clothes, etc, but the eye needs to be very specific, and I don't find a perfect fit anywhere. There is an alien eye, though, that could be the perfect base - only the creator is not allowing modifications of their textures. Well, shouldn't be a problem, says I, I'm not uploading it anywhere, am I? It's only for my own use, I'll go ahead and no one will be the wiser. Or, even more likely, since I'm not planning to upload either the sim or the eyeset, I don't even bother to read the policy, since I assume what I do on my own hard drive is nobody else's business. So I go on, modify the eye texture, make it fit for my sim, and in the end I have my precious little sim look just like I imagined he would. But now it occurs to me that maybe others would appreciate his looks as well, and with all the work I've put into creating him, it seems only right that I share him with others. Which I do, consequently violating the original creator's policy. I never meant to do harm or be disrespectful, I was only naive and ignorant.

Of course ignorance of the law does not make one exempt from obeying it, but what I think people like this need is information, and a polite reminder that they are in the wrong. It may well be that *I* am naive, but I really think that many would jump and say "oh, I'm sorry, I didn't realise", and would be polite and respectful from that point on, or would at least choose their bases more carefully. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, give even policy offenders the benefit of the doubt, and try to remind them politely that they are doing wrong, they might change their ways, and that way everyone can benefit.

so true. the whole modding-sims-2 system has always been upheld by a common unmentioned respect to other creators, sometimes because we just want to share other people's creations through our own. i would never openly break someone's terms of use, because it's just rude and if you do, you don't deserve whatever you took from the creator and abused.

the only thing i find frustrating is when a creation is left unmarked in any way by a creator, so you try to link to it but Delphy'sDownloadOrganiser or SimPE can only tell you that the description is "ab59349hff94j9jgk94". I have a hard time removing that object from an uploaded lot or whatever just because the creator wasn't responsible enough to mark their work.

But there is still absolutely no excuse for at the very least linking to a creator if you know who it is. I totally agree with the post, because it's just a common courtesy that's developed in this network of sites, like you said. If TS3 doesn't allow modding, an entire ecosystem will collapse!

Well-said HP. I think what you're saying is something we can all live with. I personally think the entire community would be much better off if everyone lightened up and said do whatever you like except no paysites and give credit and a link, but I appreciate that we're a long way from that at this point. I personally do what creators ask, not because I think they're right, but I don't want to cause bad feelings over it. If it's too annoying, then I just don't use their stuff. The truth is, they're trying to control the uncontrolable and limiting the popularity of their creations.

No content should be exclusive. I'm not just talking about paysites, also the "supah sekkrit" forums or such nonsense. Cooperation and synthesis is a better model then exclusivity. Where would we be if Ren of Sim-Cribbing didn't allow people to freely use her textures? Or if Warlokk decided everyone had to jump through hoops to modify his meshes?

I agree with you 100%. It's rather annoying when you download something and realize whomever posted it had no right to post it in the first place. I do wish that some creators would ease up on their posting requirements (ie credit for pics I dont upload pics because I dont want to have to go list all of the links to the creators) But I think that alot of the creators have put their time and effort into this "hobby" and we as downloaders should respect their wishes when it comes to redistributing their creations. Just like when buying art, you'd never try to say I made any of the paintings in my home so why would you claim someones art work made for the sims as your own?
"the only thing i find frustrating is when a creation is left unmarked in any way by a creator, so you try to link to it but Delphy'sDownloadOrganiser or SimPE can only tell you that the description is "ab59349hff94j9jgk94". I have a hard time removing that object from an uploaded lot or whatever just because the creator wasn't responsible enough to mark their work"
And I whole heartedly agree with that one, it makes it very difficult to give credit where credit is do if you can't figure out who the heck made the part in the first place. That is very annoying maybe some creators who know they are guilty of this could fix it hint hint

hp is obviously a mature person. they want whats best for the community overall. this has been a long time coming, and the whole 'free for all' movement is a bunch of teenagers, who just wanna do what we wanna do. and it's also sort of fun to cause great debates like this.

btw, i regularly see other creators creations reposted on other sites, especialy the exchange. i havent seen any of mine elxwhere yet though...

haha kelly i like that insert a$$ comment here hehehe.XD

Well, in the end, it could be said that HP post just states common sense, though explained in a wonderful logorrhoic, argumented, well explained manner. Common sense is, however, such a rare commodity in many people's heads that there will always be the need of someone able to explain it in exhaustive ways, without any danger of being perceived as "pedant".

Personally, of course, i agree with just about every word here, but i have to say there's something about this modding community that feels quite strange to me when it comes to redistribution policies, and thus i'm here replying.
English isn't my native language, so, sorry for any linguistic aberration that could (and will, that's for sure, if it didn't already) slip through my own logorrhea :P


I'm back playing the sims after a long time, so obviously the first days were totally dedicated to find and download those mods i remembered from my previous times, and to look at everything new made since then.
I usually only play games that allows much modification capabilities, and often i too am a modder, though i rarely share much of my work 'cause i'm not very constant with a single game/modding community, and not very constant in playing at all. Thus meaning, it would be just stupid to share a full mod or one in development - though already playable - if i could not be there to support the downloaders with eventual issues after some months. And an issue is always bound to happen, if it's not a fault in your own work, it will be one day a mod by somebody else that conflicts with yours.

Modding, in huge modding communities (so modding for famous games with many players and many modders), is an hobby that requires added dedication and seriousness. It's not that you can't do things just for fun, your fun, it's that you have to keep in mind the needs of the common players submerged by thousands of different (or not-so-different) mods. And what is just obvious and easy for you modder, may not be so for the "casual" player.
That's why, on the conceptual point at least, it's more than justified when a creator ask a proper respect of his work, his dedication and his seriousness.
The way the modding in the Sims works - both community common rules and the game mechanics themselves - however, often take things to a paradoxical extent.

Let's say this month i decide to take Civ IV back from the shelf and play it : right after installing it i'll be on Civ Fanatics, choosing one of the major modifications, a bunch of minor ones, and it's done, i'm ready to rock. The same would go if I'm gonna play Galciv, or even a better example, Oblivion : i will be browsing for quite some time the endless Bethesda forums, where i can find almost everything ever made, and maybe that bunch of external sites i know for making good themed projects, advertised on the forums. Sometimes it's something that will take time for the huge amount of choice, but more or less it's all quite ordered and simple : what i need is there, i just have to click it and follow the instructions.

It's not the same for The Sims. Though MTS2 is by far the standard "landmark" for sims modding, still it's quite the tip of the iceberg, the start point rather than the end point. And often many of the things shared will take you all around the net : something that sometimes is just a matter of added time (sometimes the 15 seconds HP mentioned, other times i have to say way, way more), some other times it can be an odyssey. Why? Two main reasons.

1- The Sims is a particular game. It's not an RPG, or a strategy game, where more or less there's a definite category of players with some strong points in common. It's far more like playing with dolls : i have fun killing my sims in the most imaginative ways, even if, maybe, it took me eons to make them look good, or to make that lot just like that Japanese temple i saw in that other show. Other people have fun in dressing their dolls how they dream of, creating stories or settings, and playing very carefully through 'em, with the best content they can find. It's a game played by an incredibly wide spectrum of people; and some of these people are... ready to pay for it. Nothing wrong here, uh, don't misunderstand me, everyone has the right to spend his money how they like, and we all spent our money to actually buy the game itself.
The difference is, maybe, how they are easily prone to spend them. Maybe also because while for many other games there's a strong predominance of younger players, the sims is something widely played also by older people.
I mean, custom, fanmade pay content for oblivion will never have much success, just 'cause the 99% of the gamers community would laugh hard, really hard, at those who would try to sell it. Actually, more than laughs, in many modding communities, the proliferating of unofficial paysites would raise a real storm. It's just not an habit for those kind of gaming communities, it's so strange there that would be seen by most people as a "sick" behaviour.

With the Sims, though, we see many paysites, and as there are many paysites, there are many more indipendent free sites, often with little to no connection, or cooperation, with other sites. And even when there is some cooperation, every site's links page will knock you down with dozens of banners. Where the hell to start? I need my pills, where the heck are my pills?
All in all, there's a much more developed feeling of "owning" of everyone work. Who knows why, maybe, a subliminal thought "jeez, if there's so much people that ask money for their mods, why shouldn't i at least require a strict policy on mine? Why shouldn't they at least come to my site, my home, to download? And my work is even better done than some of those paycraps!".

So, from the basic issue of a chaotic offer all over the net, we come to another, maybe even worse issue, and that's the second reason for the mentioned "odyssey" :

2- "Hey, today i want to download a couple more sims, let's look over at MTS2 if i find something that suits my tastes! Yeah, the site's painfully slow, but that's only because it's a great site with tons of users and resources! Uhhh look at that picture! Niiiice! Let's see, let's see, yummy!"
"Hi, custom content made by me : the sim and the screenshot. Custom content included : the sim. Custom content not included... [insert here an endless list]. You can find that here and that there, good downloading!"
"... You know where you should stick your download up, missy? What will you upload tomorrow, a sheet of paper with a list of how many ticks of nose ugliness we should raise from a basic face shape to get your sim? Oh well, patience, who cares, the sim look good, let's follow those links, it's not her fault..."

Nor is "her" fault when, maybe, the upload is a bit old, and, maybe, the link works no more because the site it was referring to has changed, and good luck if you're searching for an old hair mesh on peggysims having to browse them one by one. Nor is "her" fault if the referring site does not allow a direct link to a specific page and you have to do so even if the upload have no "old" alibi.
Over all, if you are patient, painfully patient, one way or another you'll end up with all the "pieces" you need, unless the upload is really old and pointing to too many dead spots. But if often this hassle is just that famous 15 seconds for a mesh, other times downloading a single sim, or lot, just how they look in the beautiful screenshot, will take you tens of minutes. I remember a beautiful sim i downloaded some days ago that, in total, took me more than 1 hour, spent jumping from one site to another, chasing the various pieces.

Really, who's the culprit here, the uploader? Hell, no, it's just someone zealous (maybe a bit overzealous eh...) who followed the authors policies, how can i blame him - apart from the initial rant on the spot i mean :P.
Then the culprit are those authors, who forbid the upload of their meshes or make ups or who-cares-what in other people's upload? One by one, no, they just stated a policy that, taken by itself, isn't that absurd. Problem is, each one policies tend to sum up.
The downloader pays the final toll. And sometimes the bill is quite pricy.


Unfortunately, as i stated, part of the problem is in the game mechanics : in many other games there's no choice, if I use something yours in a mod, there's no way to build up a "modular" download, i just have to use it. If oblivion worked like that, to stick within the examples made, probably we would see some very similar issues in that community too.
Still the result is other chaos that sums up, bringing up sometimes a result that can easily frustrate the downloader, the gamer, and i bet, even the modder, who needs to keep a painful, boundless track of everything used from everywhere. I work in publishing and web designing, i'm payed for it, and i can assure you that the common conduct for using external content for a project is often way less fussy than what i see in the sims modding community.

HP said, and she's not wrong, that often this way a releaser can keep track of other mods that use his work, and then - to the advantage of us all - help those "third party" mods to be up to date. Shame is, sometimes this habit can produce the opposite result, as i described. Uploads can "die" quite quickly of old age if there was much content not included and only referred to.

Modders elsewhere, to keep each other works up to date, just stay in contact, and follow each other developments. That is feasible 'cause often there is a single spot, site or forum or anything else, where every modder shows his work. Maybe it will share it elsewhere, but at least it's shown there. MTS2 is the nearest thing to that concept we have in the sims, but still - and definitely it's not its fault - is far from effectively being the same thing.

There's no easy, nor effective, solution here, 'cause there's nothing specific at fault. It's the result of many little things that, looked at separately, seems harmless. A good starting point would be, however, from the creators. When you decide your own policy of redistribution, please, don't use "your" common sense : think of a broader, larger common sense. A common sense that can be applied farther from your own little creator site, page, panel, pride, nose (however long could it be ).

Once someone asks you politely a resource, just let him upload it - with the doverous credits - with his work. If you don't do so 'cause you plan to update that resource in the future and that would make things easier, then that's a justified reason, but let's tell the truth : this is quite rarely the real reason, it seems often more like an excuse. If you don't do that because you like to have people come to your site, so you can show them your html skills, or so the counters on your pay per visit banners will go up, then, you're really a poor thing. I'm not gonna say you can't, it's not my business, but you can't say either that i shouldn't pity you : it's not your business.

After all, come on, there's no way to "protect" our work. Bill Gates still have to find a way to prevent people from using pirated copies of his crappy OS, do you think you could succeed where such an evil genius, globally - and rightfully - feared and hated, couldn't?


(Edited for : a couple of grammar horrors, and an "he" instead of "she"... )

What comedy711 said. I think a certain respect exists within the community, but nothing torques me off more than seeing a creation that I know was a MTS2 original reposted on the exchange by some twelve-year-old. And then the kid has the gall to say "I worked sooo hard on this lot/sim/object".
And while I agree a certain level of professionalism should be maintained among free creators, I have no sympathy at all for pay/donation creators. You're breaking the law. There's no 2 ways about it. While I don't "steal" downloads myself or advocate it, I think the pirate sites are heroic in what they do. And I have to laugh when the paysites try to take legal action. This is like calling the cops and telling them someone stole your weed. Besides, paysites steal free creators' meshes and textures all the time.